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[Music]
Hello and welcome to Fos and Crafts.
A podcast about free software, free culture, and making things together.
With my co-host Morgan.
And my co-host Christine.
Well, today's, I guess you could say kind of a fluff episode, but you know, less
some fluffy, I guess, you know, also kind of splashy.
Yeah, so just in case you all were starting to think that we were like
highly competent people, we had kind of a
sitcomy catastrophic event happen this weekend.
And it led us to the idea of doing a podcast about
what happens when things go wrong.
Yeah, I, it was so sitcomy.
I couldn't believe it. So even I think the retelling of it ended up being very
sitcomy when we ended up talking about it afterwards.
We'll start off with my initial mistake.
If, how I retold it, I was like, well, you know, I said to you, you know,
are you sure you think that you can fix the drippy sink? You know, maybe you should
just call a plumber, which in classics it comfashined that the part.
Absolutely not. Which was not what Christine said.
It's not what I said. Because what Christine told me was
that that sink is dripping. I think it's at the point where either
you should look at some YouTube videos and see if you can fix it yourself
or call a plumber. Hey, it wouldn't be classics that comfashined if after the
fact I wasn't giving you a hard time harder than you actually deserved in
that particular case. All right, so from my perspective,
I said to Morgan, hey, I'm going to go put on my makeup
and Morgan said that's fine. And so I went up to put on my makeup and then
suddenly I hear Morgan yelling, Christine, could you come down and help me with
this? And I was like, why is Morgan so upset?
She just said it was fine for me to put on my makeup.
And so I, but then I was like, oh shit, something's wrong. So then I ran on the
stairs and I run into the bathroom and I see this
very sitcom like there's like a guy's that are coming out of the, out of the
handle, the thing, the handle like of the hot water, the steaming geyser.
Yeah, so what had happened was I thought that I had turned off
the input valve. I turned it as far as it could go.
The main mistake I made was that I hadn't tested the handle
to make sure that the hot water was off and we'll get back to that valve in
a little bit. But so I took apart the handle of the
of the sink so that I could replace the seating and the
spring so that it would stop dripping. And as soon as I got like the center
piece out, I pulled it out and there was a geyser.
And then I spent like probably about a minute or two
doing the very sitcom-y like I can fix this by myself grabbing towels and like
trying to shove the piece back in to stop it which obviously was not going to work.
And then I was yelling from the bathroom which Christine could not hear.
So eventually I was like okay I'm going to leave this
massive mess alone for like 10 seconds so I can run to the bottom of the stairs
and yell at Christine. All right and cue back to where the moment in time
where I am staring at this thing and there's hot water steaming out of there
and I'm like oh no what should we do it? And you're like well try turning the
the valve. I tried turning it and it won't turn for
enough so I'm trying to grab and turn the valve
but steaming hot water. Like scalding water. Scalding water. Our water heater is
very good. It comes out the water comes out very hot when
all the way on. And so I'm trying to turn it but it keeps
burning my hand and it feels like it is never getting tight
right. And so eventually like more water is filling up our bathroom very
rapidly. And eventually I'm like you know what I'm just running into the
basement to turn this off. I told you to run into the basement
and turn it off. So eventually Morgan tells me to run into the
basement to turn it off. So I run into the basement and I am not
sure which thing to turn off. I'm listening to the pipes to try to find
out which one. I turned something off. Nothing happens.
I'm like wait if I turn this one I'm pretty sure another thing is going to
start having water pour out of here. You know what?
I'm pretty sure that water heaters have a safety thing where you can turn off
the water. So I ran to the water heater, turned off
both valves. And finally Morgan yells that it's okay right. That it stopped.
So in case you thought that I was a handy person. Well you so it turns out you are
a handy person but I'm going to give you one more piece of trouble though.
Yeah. Because then Morgan's like well you know what
I think I've already gone this far. I might as well finish this
except you couldn't find the stop or like the gasket right?
Yeah so to fix a leaky sink you have to replace this
this gasket called the seeding and then the spring that goes in with it.
But somehow between like the dripping which probably means that it was already
starting to come apart anyways and the geyser
those two pieces are just like gone entirely. I could not find them.
So Morgan's like well I think I should take apart
this other handle. The other handle in order to like make
and like you know in order to see what those equivalent pieces are and
I'm like Morgan no. Morgan no. And like Morgan's like well
we've already gone this far. So here's our sunk cost valve.
And look you already turned off the bottom valve so it's probably fine and I
like Morgan if this one goes off I'm not sure which of those handles in the
basement is I'm supposed to turn to be able to turn this thing
like our actual water off. So we could be in really bad trouble.
Turns out that was a good a good decision. Yeah you remember that valve that I
thought was off? Turns out it's just broken. Yeah so the
valves in our bathroom were not correctly installed or just never worked or
something like that. I think that it's that they were
installed by like the previous homeowners and probably not installed
correctly. So we need to replace the faucet. We need
to replace the the intake hoses for the sink and we also need to
replace those valves. So relying on those valves was
never a good idea. And I was never going to appropriately
fix this sink because it was way more broken than just dripping
anyways. So me saying that I will not be able to
fix the things that once things turned off you you were like okay
yes and agreed to not open the other one. We did have a plumber come
the plumber informed us of all those things and then we were like
wow so that was an adventure and first of all it turns out it was not Morgan's
fault that this thing ended up falling apart right Morgan
except for not testing it. That was a big mistake. That was my mistake. That was
a mistake. The other parts were not your fault. Yeah. Right. So we
were we thought we'd have this episode as in terms of kind of a light
episode in between where we talked about when things go badly.
Hilariously badly. Hilariously badly. And if you're looking for serious content
the main thing you'll get out of this is maybe some like self-help
book level of like lessons of failing up and stuff like that. Yeah.
And we should also give a content warning. We're talking about failures here
both in crafting and coding which means that there's going to be some
injuries. None of which we'll be talked about in great detail and there will be
no blood. Okay. But look continuing with the
self-help book some failures can be happy accidents type things. This was not a
happy accident we just talked about. This was just a straight up sitcom. A
sitcom thing that eventually the lesson was okay we need to get in
somebody in here who knew what they were doing. Yeah. Also this did
absolutely flood our bathroom about an inch deep in water and used up
all but pretty much all of our towels to soak up. Yeah. But some failures
you can fail upward on when you're doing crafting type things right? Yeah.
So in crafting we already kind of used the Bob Ross term of happy little
accidents or mistakes. So where you know you mess up something in
your painting and then you turn it into a happy little tree and it's just part
of your composition. For other crafting things sometimes when
you're trying to make like a infinity scarf and you join the two ends
together if you're knitting it takes you maybe four or five rows to
realize that that strand was twisted when you joined them together and now
instead of having like a tube you've got basically a moibus where there's a
twist in it. Sometimes that's cool. Sometimes it means you have to rip the
whole thing apart and start over. Yep. And like you know there are a lot of
inventions in history such as like decaf coffee is an example of this. I
look this up hastily before this. In 1903 as if this is a episode where we
do historical research. In 1903 Ludwig Rossellius ordered some coffee
and the the crate that I think he was a coffee merchant actually and the
crates of coffee ended up there was a ship accident so they ended up soaked
in the sea water and they ended up tasting fine enough but you know
apparently didn't give them a buzz or whatever and that ended up being like oh
hey you know we can we can get rid of the caffeine. We can
get rid of the caffeine and things can taste fine enough and so that kind of
led to the water process. Maybe not safely because initially like they
were using some hard chemicals. I think he's benzene which is like super
toxic for initially in decaf. There's later innovations result in like a
water process which is fairly safe and stuff like that. And then another
really famous example of you know failing upwards or a happy mistake
was the discovery of penicillin. So in 1928 Dr. Alexander Fleming goes on
vacation and when he comes back from vacation and gets back to his lab he
finds mold growing in some of the petri dishes. One of which had
straffa lococcus bacteria in it and he saw that the mold was kind of preventing
the bacteria from growing. And after a long drawn out process of
researching this that's how we discovered penicillin which you know
is an antibacterial. Although he's not the one who made penicillin viable I
think. Somebody knows. No he did a bunch of research and was never able to get
it to the point where it would be viable as a medication. It took about a decade
and a bunch of other scientists and researchers
to get it to the point where it was viable as a medication. So those are just
kind of historical examples like pop science examples really. Things that
everyone has slightly in the back of their head. Yeah but they have to hastily
do a web search to say them on their podcast. But like for me actually this
is how I like sometimes when things go badly they go you know your
bathroom is flooding you know and sometimes they result in I don't know
society changing medication type things eventually right. Most of our mistakes
are not the discovery of penicillin. Or even decaf coffee. But like I think
changing the ability to fail incrementally versus failing all at once
can make a big difference right. So I for example you like to bake. I do. I don't
like to bake. Yeah. And the reason I don't like to bake
is I like to cook and I like to keep testing things as they go.
And like I screw up a lot and then the things I screw up actually become
part of what I'm like you know I'm like wait oh I didn't intend things for go
this to go in this direction. Well you know what I have like enough of like a
repertoire in my mind of like things where when things go in one
direction I can kind of push things in another or you know me having like
accidentally burned this food is actually an opportunity to actually you know make
a nice smoky sauce or something like that. Yeah so with very few exceptions
you're usually able to resolve it. I'm able to recover and actually just
make it part of whatever I'm doing right. Yeah. I mean except for like the time
that you dropped the glass thing in there. I was so mad. Oh my gosh.
That was not a recoverable mistake. Yeah no actually let's include the
picture of that. Having slow cooked down or actually I think
it was pressure cooked. All these vegetables that we had grown
throughout the year that Morgana planted I had harvested and chopped up
pressure cooked down into this delicious sauce and everything like that. I
then pull something out of the microwave which is above the stove and then
shatter some glass directly into the dot drop in full of
sauce. There is no recovering that one. That is
not a happy accident. No matter how many chunks of glass you pull out you never
know if there's any left in there. So that's when you have to cut your
losses. So we both like this. Yeah. Part of the
pleasant aspect that is actually that it's there's an expert. This
encourages experimental style development. The whole
worst is better story. It's because of lisper's feeling
strongly about kind of operating on live patients who have
other than corpses. You're a physician. And even more than
that you're crafting. Your crafting as you go.
And for you even though you like baking for most things that you're doing
that are crafting you actually prefer things that are closer to
the same way. Off the cuff as opposed to following instructions. Yeah the same way
that I like with cooking right? Yeah so I have a lot of happy little
accidents in my crafting things in the same way that you do with
your cooking. Can you give an example? Well so I don't
like to follow patterns of I mean definitely not for crocheting or knitting.
Yeah I hold on. You're talking about with textiles. Morgan
not liking patterns. You love patterns. I love patterns like
of behavior. And pattern recognition and behavior and stuff like that.
I do not like following patterns as an instructions for how to make things.
Because I am very dyslexic and the notation styles that are used for a lot
of craft patterns are very difficult to keep straight
if you are dyslexic and dyscalculic. So a lot of
my crafting is experimentation and some of it is trying to follow a pattern
and failing at following the pattern but discovering my own way that I like
better. Right and actually the terminals is
episode that just preceded this episode. I kind of talked about how goblins was
a you know kind of an output of me experimenting in other languages. And I
think what I hadn't talked about was there was a game that I
tempted to build that was kind of like a quick shooter type game right? A quick
draw type game like in the Kirby games they have this where you and another
person that symbol appears suddenly on the screen and whoever presses the
button fastest is the one who like wins you know and like you know that wins
the shootout right? And I was trying to do that and I
couldn't figure out how to be able to make different events happen at the same
time in this very interesting experimental
game framework someone else had made. And trying to figure out how to be able to
make events happen at the same time because there's system there's some goofy
ideas about it led me to actually think well how would I
design this and that actually led to goblins in many ways. So yeah. Yeah that's
our section on happy mistakes and failing up. Now we're just going to tell us
lieu of anecdotes of kind of hilarious ways that we have
failed in crafting and coding. So one example that I'm guessing at least
one person or two people in the audience out here who
have done a lot of hand sewing have probably also done is
sewing whatever your project is into the clothing that you're wearing.
So I distinctly remember like when I was a kid and doing embroidery
and sitting like a kid does like kind of curled up with your knees up on the
couch and my embroidery hoop just kind of sitting
on top of my leg I definitely sewed my embroidery project hoop and all to
my skirt at one point that is always fun because then
like that one's not a happy mistake because it's very difficult to just
preserve your work and move on unless you're gonna like cut out your skirt
or something like that. So you have to tear everything apart.
You know I'm completely misread what this was on the sheet and I thought that
it was something else. I thought you were going to sit talk about how you
would use hula hoops to like make your Renfaire. Oh I did use I have used hula
hoops to make a hoop skirt for Renfaire. I was like did Morgan accidentally sew
the hula hoop into the thing? I thought that more and plan that.
No I did plan that. I don't know if that one wasn't a mistake though that was
me being like I need a hoop skirt for this Renfaire costume
but buying a hoop skirt either I'll get like
a really cheap one that's not gonna last or it'll be really expensive so instead
I made one using hula hoops. So that was deliberate. That was
deliberate. The only accident here is me
misinterpreting it meaning that our listeners get a bonus crafting story.
Yes. Okay. I would not actually recommend using hula hoops for a hoop skirt though
because they don't have enough give so they restrict how far apart your
legs can get when you're walking. So if you try and like run while wearing a
hoop skirt made out of a hula hoop you're gonna trip.
Oh okay. Also maybe just don't run while wearing
hoop skirts because there's a good chance you're gonna trip regardless.
So my biggest failure that I can think of in well it's not my biggest failure
but my biggest failure is my greatest failure of all time.
This is a failure that I think ended up being very defining though as in terms of
it it helped me in my presentation style by
feeling so dramatically that I realized that you know I don't need to be afraid
of presenting anymore because I managed to become a member.
Because it's not going to get worse. So at PyCon during a lightning talk one year
I like maybe about 15 years ago. Yeah. A long time ago. I was presenting on the
animation framework I used to propose to Morgan which that's a separate story
maybe for someday. That was not a failure. No that was not a failure.
Morgan did say yes. We are in fact married. I wrote an
animation framework in Python to propose to Morgan of
my character of me proposing. And anyway the point is to set up PyCon I was
giving a presentation on this and PyCon's lightning talks are like a big deal
and you know this is my first time giving a presentation in front of this many
people. This was like you know like a thousand people I thought or something
like that. I don't know if it actually was but I was gonna give this presentation
you know you only have like 10 minutes on stage or whatever.
And I had written my presentation in the animation framework so that you know as
you move forward it actually explains things. I had given this talk
at like the local Python user group but not in front of this big of an audience.
And it hadn't been recorded. And it hadn't been recorded. And so I went up on
stage to present this and something went wrong during the middle of the
presentation where I stopped being able to advance
kind of the slides and I hadn't written anything where I could move backwards
in the animation. And so I had to go to my command line and kill the program
and I was gonna start it back up again. But then when I killed the program
something happened where suddenly the terminal it started spinning rapidly
backward through the history. It was like going like like backwards and
backwards through the history. And that was probably like a key being
stuck or something like that. Yeah it was probably a key being stuck and I
that's immediately what I thought. And so like I was trying to find what
key it was that was stuck because I knew I was already running out of time
because I had been half way through the presentation. And so I started trying to
hit keys on the keyboard and like and then and increasingly
frantically. Yeah and then I eventually realized
this talk is doomed. And like this was like this I was presenting it on the
keep a think pad like an ancient one that was like almost dead already anyway.
And I was like this talk is doomed and this think pad is doomed.
I am leaning all in and people had started laughing as I was like smashing my hand
on the keyboard. And I'm like all right Christine we're going all in. So I just
start smashing my hands dramatically on the keyboard. And eventually like
punching the keyboard just like humorously on stage and just like
and I just like gave an frustrated shout of like "Rah!" and I'm like well okay I
guess that's the end of my presentation. And like the the audience was erupting
with laughter and I was leaving the stage and like and Jacob Kaplan-Moss said
like that was the most memorable talk of all of PyCon. And I'm like well not for
the reasons I wanted it to be. And he said yeah that doesn't matter.
People still bring that talk up sometimes like at conferences.
People remember that talk. So what I realized was if I failed that
hard and people really enjoyed it I can probably lean in to failure.
Yeah. I had a couple of other talks it's not as funny as that where I also
kind of like you know like just kind of leaned into being over the top. And so
maybe that's why decade plus later doing
Fossing Crafts. Yeah we're on a podcast. And Christine
obviously the over-the-top ridiculous co-host of the podcast just leaning into
it. Morgan's raising. Yeah you missed it.
You missed a serious eyebrow raise there. Sorry podcast format you cannot see the
facial expressions. I give my wife when she's being
ridiculous. All right well it's time for Morgan to talk
about Morgan being ridiculous. What's something ridiculous that's happened
with you? So a few episodes or a couple episodes
passed at this point we talked about the creation of our van. So converting a
cargo van into a camper van. And I mean there were a lot of
smaller failures on that process. I think including setting up I had to
redo the the bookshelf in it where I had already started putting it together and
then I had to disassemble it and redo it because
I could not fit physically my screwdriver into the space it needed to go to
to finish one of the things. But the funniest story of
that which I think I did tell on that previous episode but we're going to tell
it again because it was pretty epic was there was this old gross mat
that was in the van. And when I pulled it out I just kind of like ripped it out
and tossed it on the driveway behind the van. And then I started like
cleaning out the van and started doing the rust remediation and stuff like that.
But one of the things you might not realize before you start working on a
cargo van that you cannot physically stand up in is that's a lot of time to be
kneeling while doing work. And if your body is not used to that it can be
hard to adjust to. So after a few hours of working on the van
I went to get out and like my legs were somehow like half a sleep/
cramping and I go to get out of the van and I just kind of
pratfall face first out of the van. And luckily that gross
perpetually moist disgusting mat was still sitting
at the end of the van on top of the driveway because that meant that I just
fell faced first into a disgusting mat instead of
disgusting, mysteriously moist mat. Yeah but that is
preferable to just falling face first into
asphalt out of a van which probably would have been a more serious injury
than just my pride. Right yep yep so I'm going to tell a
former work story which should I tell this or not? I think it's probably fine.
It's been over a decade. Yeah so this is me making a mistake
but it was kind of revealing. So the Creative Commons license
chooser where you can choose between you know the different licenses and it
will give you the output that you can copy and paste to different sites.
In Creative Commons on that license chooser it would have an RDFA the machine
readable metadata like which license you had chosen and that is actually
used by a number of different like web crawlers to actually identify which
content is under which license and so that they can like power their image
search and stuff. Well I had worked on a rework of that
and then rollout for the new version of the license chooser
went live on a Friday you know obviously the time when something should go live
is on right before a weekend right. Because that's definitely when you'll be
able to fix your bugs. Right so that went live and I came back on
Monday and realized immediately nobody sent us any
message or anything. I just realized immediately that I
had made a mistake and that the license chooser was
actually not spitting out the right license metadata. So you'd select a
license and it would actually give you the right
license text but the for the human readable text. But the machine readable
version that you could copy and paste your website was actually wrong
and so people were mismarking their pages and I felt for a whole weekend.
For a whole weekend and I felt terrible about this and I sent a really
apologetic email to the text thing. I was sure I was like screwing it
going to be fired or something but our assistant man at the time sent an
email saying well that just goes to prove that nobody's paying attention
at all to the metadata initiative. My boss was like yep.
But that did actually kind of influence my thinking about like you know okay
manually marking things up you know the whole machine readable version of
human readable things. We are one of the few places that is delivering this for
people and it is having an effect like it's being used by things but
obviously you know you know our assistant man was right people
people just didn't realize so the I would have figured we would have had a
bunch of angry emails and we didn't and that was kind of
illuminating in its own way. Yeah this next story I'm going to tell
does involve an injury and it also involves a saw but I'm going to remind
you that there's no blood so it's not going to be as bad as the
lead up to the story to the injury is going to sound. As I've mentioned in a
previous episode during my dissertation research I constructed a
Roman to beam upright loom and in making that I needed to make
the loom headled jacks which are the part that sticks off on the two sides of
the frame of the loom and you can and it props the
headle up for one position and then when it's not propped up it's the second
position but that required cutting basically like a
fevron shape into a round dowel like a two inch round dowel
and I made the very questionable decision to
use a miter saw to do this because I could get the
angle and just basically cut like halfway pull up
rotate and then cut the other half so that I would get like this little arrow
cut out instead of like a straight cut and cutting the second one of these
the dowel moved and caught my middle finger between the dowel
and the saw and then the saw binded which is basically like if the saw blade is
not going in at the right angle then it just kind of like
jerks kind of violently and then uh doesn't move properly
which means that my middle finger got stuck between the dowel and the back
and I'm pretty sure that I broke my finger
but this happened in like probably april of 2020
and I did not want to go to an emergency room for a non-fatal injury
I'm pretty sure I encouraged you to go oh you you told me to go to the emergency
room but like there's very little they can do for broken
fingers anyways well they can they can put it in a
splint they can and they probably should have because my
finger is still a little bit and it still hurts sometimes but
I'm not sure what lesson more or less than a take out of that one even it I
don't know even if there's a global pandemic still get a splint at least
yeah I probably could have at least gone to Walgreens probably could have gone
to Walgreens to get a splint all right look you break your finger
go to Walgreens to get a splint that's your lesson people all right
all right so just so the moral of this episode in general is
everyone makes mistakes and sometimes they're funny sometimes they're a little
bit horrifying but making mistakes in both crafting
encoding is kind of how you learn but I guess let's end this one with a
partly why Morgan is a much more crafty one and I'm the one who deals with
imaginary worlds of software more often would you like to tell so people
sometimes people are surprised when they hear
Christine is not allowed to touch power tools yeah sometimes people think I'm
just like controlling when they hear oh Christine's not
allowed to touch my tools but that's actually Christine's rule not mine
that's right because Christine I'm way too much of a clutch
is a clutch okay so before I built the library for our
house I was building kind of like a pro no wait
people might not know we're gonna build a freaking library in our house
which is amazing yeah there was there's one single room in our house that has
two walls that don't have any uh baseboard radiators on that okay wait wait
we don't need to get into the library let's just I built a library for our house
it was our it was my first house project once we bought the house
and so I was building like this prototype book shelf to
like as a proof of concept to make sure that I knew the gist of how to
build this library and it was my first time using an orbital sander
and I had just gotten to the point where I needed to
replace the sandpaper and I was being like probably more cautious than I
needed to be I mean I was being exactly as cautious as I
needed to be and then a little bit more but I had like
unplugged the sander and replaced the sandpaper and then like made sure that
it was off and plugged it back in and I had just restarted sanding with the
fresh sandpaper on and I was wearing headphone
noise canceling headphones and I hear screaming and for like
a good like five seconds I'm just like looking at this tool in my hands thinking
am I like dissociating right now have I like injured myself and I'm screaming
and I don't perceive it no it's your wife the Clutz
who while Morgan uses a fancy power tool
her wife merely steps one step out the door
and sprains her ankle turning it at a 90 degree angle as she steps off a single
step and then like throws the door open dramatically
screaming and like pulls herself inside it was a 90 degree angle that frickin
hurt I believe that it hurt so yes so Morgan uses a power tools
Christine does not use the power tools Morgan Christine cooks in the kitchen
and programs the software is Christine does not touch the power tools
anyway that's a reason the whole reason for that is knowing your limits so that
the failures can be funny and not traumatic traumatic and life ending
and on that note make mistakes learn from your mistakes make making
mistakes possible and safe and not dangerous yeah take the steps that you
need to take so that your mistakes are not catastrophic
and on that note bye everybody thanks bye
Fos and Crafts is released under the Creative Commons attribution chair alike
4.0 international license it's hosted by Morgan Lemmerweber and Christine
Lemmerweber the intro music is composed by Christine Lemmerweber
meeting myself in Milky Tracker and has released under the same license as the
show the outro music is Enchanted Teakey 86
composed by Alex Smith of the Cinec project and is waved into the public
domain under CC01.0 see cinecmusic.com for more information
you can get in contact with us on the Fediverse
fos and crafts at octadont.social on twitter as @fos and crafts
or you can email us podcast@fos and crafts.org
we also have a chat room join our community on #fos and crafts on
irc.libera.chat if you'd like to support the show
you can donate at patreon.com/fos and crafts
that's it for this week until next time stay free
and stay crafty
wait did you write oh you wrote you did write metadata i thought you wrote
creative commons melodrama which would have actually
That's a bit of a idea.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHRISTINE LEMMER-WEBBER: Hello and welcome to Fos and Crafts.
MORGAN LEMMER-WEBBER: A podcast about free software, free culture, and making things together.
C: With my co-host Morgan.
M: And my co-host Christine.
C: Well, today's, I guess you could say kind of a fluff episode, but you know, less fluffy, I guess, you know, also kind of splashy.
M: Yeah, so just in case you all were starting to think that we were highly competent people, we had kind of a sitcom-y catastrophic event happen this weekend. And it led us to the idea of doing a podcast about what happens when things go wrong.
C: Yeah, it was so sitcom-y. I couldn't believe it. So even I think the retelling of it ended up being very sitcom-y when we ended up talking about it afterwards. We'll start off with my initial mistake. How I retold it, I was like, well, you know, I said to you, you know, are you sure you think that you can fix the drippy sink? You know, maybe you should just call a plumber, which in classics sitcom fashion that--
M: --was absolutely not what Christine said.
C: It's not what I said.
M: Because what Christine told me was that the sink is dripping. I think it's at the point where either you should look at some YouTube videos and see if you can fix it yourself or call a plumber.
C: Hey, it wouldn't be classic sitcom fashion if after the fact I wasn't giving you a hard time, harder than you actually deserved, in that particular case. All right, so from my perspective, I said to Morgan, "hey, I'm going to go put on my makeup" and Morgan said "that's fine". And so I went up to put on my makeup and then suddenly I hear Morgan yelling, "Christine, could you come down and help me with this?" And I was like, "why is Morgan so upset? She just said it was fine for me to put on my makeup." And so I, but then I was like, "Oh shit, something's wrong". So then I ran down the stairs and I run into the bathroom and I see this very sitcom-like-- there's like a geyser coming out of the handle of the hot water, this steaming geyser.
M: Yeah, so what had happened was I thought that I had turned off the input valve. I turned it as far as it could go. The main mistake I made was that I hadn't tested the handle to make sure that the hot water was off. And we'll get back to that valve in a little bit. But so I took apart the handle of the sink so that I could replace the seating and the spring so that it would stop dripping. And as soon as I got the center piece out, I pulled it out and there was a geyser. And then I spent probably about a minute or two doing the very sitcom-y like "I can fix this by myself" grabbing towels and trying to shove the piece back in to stop it which obviously was not going to work. And then I was yelling from the bathroom, which Christine could not hear. So eventually I was like "okay I'm going to leave this massive mess alone for like 10 seconds, so I can run to the bottom of the stairs and yell at Christine".
C: All right and cue back to the moment in time where I am staring at this thing and there's hot water steaming out of there, and I'm like "oh no what should we do?" And you're like, "Well, try turning the valve". I tried turning it, and it won't turn far enough, so I'm trying to grab and turn the valve, but steaming hot water,
M: Like scalding water.
C: scalding water--our water heater is very good--it comes out, the water comes out very hot when all the way on. And so I'm trying to turn it, but it keeps burning my hand, and it feels like it is never getting tight, right? And so eventually more water is filling up our bathroom very rapidly. And eventually I'm like, "You know what, I'm just running into the basement to turn this off".
M: No, I told you to run into the basement and turn it off!
C: So eventually Morgan tells me to run into the basement to turn it off. So I run into the basement, and I am not sure which thing to turn off. I'm listening to the pipes to try to find out which one. I turned something off. Nothing happens. I'm like, "Wait, if I turn this one I'm pretty sure another thing is going to start having water pour out of here. You know what? I'm pretty sure that water heaters have a safety thing where you can turn off the water." So I ran to the water heater, turned off both valves. And finally Morgan yells that it's okay, right?
M: Yeah, that it stopped. So in case you thought that I was a handy person.
C: Well you-- so it turns out you are a handy person, but I'm going to give you one more piece of trouble though.
M: Yeah.
C: Because then Morgan's like "Well you know what, I think I've already gone this far. I might as well finish this" except you couldn't find the stop or like the gasket right?
M: Yeah so to fix a leaky sink you have to replace this gasket called the seating and then the spring that goes in with it. But somehow between the dripping (which probably means that it was already starting to come apart anyways) and the geyser, those two pieces are just gone entirely. I could not find them.
C: So Morgan's like "well I think I should take apart the other handle in order to see what those equivalent pieces are" and I'm like "Morgan no. Morgan no." And like Morgan's like "well we've already gone this far. So here's our sunk cost valve. And look you already turned off the bottom valve, so it's probably fine" and I'm like "Morgan, if this one goes off, I'm not sure which of those handles in the basement I'm supposed to turn to be able to turn like our actual water off. So we could be in really bad trouble." Turns out that was a good decision.
M: Yeah you remember that valve that I thought was off? Turns out it's just broken [laughs].
C: Yeah so the valves in our bathroom were not correctly installed or just never worked or something like that?
M: I think it's that they were installed by like the previous homeowners and probably not installed correctly. So we need to replace the faucet. We need to replace the intake hoses for the sink, and we also need to replace those valves.
C: So--
M: So, I was never--
C: So relying on those valves was never a good idea.
M: And I was never going to appropriately fix this sink because it was way more broken than just dripping anyways.
C: So, me saying that I will not be able to fix the things once things are turned off, you were like "okay, yes"...
M: Mhm.
C: ...and agreed to not open the other one. We did have a plumber come. The plumber informed us of all those things, and then we were like, "Wow, so that was an adventure" and first of all, it turns out it was not Morgan's fault that this thing ended up falling apart, right Morgan--except for not testing it. That was a big mistake.
M: Yeah. That was my mistake. That was bad.
C: That was a mistake. The other parts were not your fault.
M: Yeah.
C: Right. So we thought we'd have this episode in terms of kind of a light episode in between where we talked about when things go badly.
M: Hilariously badly.
C: Hilariously badly. And if you're looking for serious content the main thing you'll get out of this is maybe some like self-help book-level of lessons of failing up and stuff like that.
M: Yeah. And we should also give a content warning. We're talking about failures here both in crafting and coding which means that there's going to be some injuries. None of which will be talked about in great detail and there will be no blood.
C: Okay. But, look, continuing with the self-help book, some failures can be happy accidents- type things. This was not a happy accident we just talked about.
M: This was just a straight-up sitcom.
C: A sitcom thing that eventually the lesson was "okay we need to get in somebody in here who knew what they were doing".
M: Yeah. Also this did absolutely flood our bathroom about an inch deep in water and used up pretty much all of our towels to soak up.
C: Yeah. But some failures you can fail upward on when you're doing crafting type things right?
M: Yeah. So in crafting we already kind of used the Bob Ross term of "happy little accidents" or mistakes. So where you know you mess up something in your painting, and then you turn it into a happy little tree, and it's just part of your composition. For other crafting things sometimes when you're trying to make like an infinity scarf, and you join the two ends together if you're knitting, it takes you maybe four or five rows to realize that that strand was twisted when you joined them together and now instead of having like a tube you've got basically a moebius where there's a twist in it. Sometimes that's cool. Sometimes it means you have to rip the whole thing apart and start over.
C: Yep. And like you know there are a lot of inventions in history such as like decaf coffee is an example of this? I looked this up hastily before this. In 1903 (as if this is an episode where we do historical research). In 1903 Ludwig Rossellius ordered some coffee and the crate that--I think he was a coffee merchant actually--and the crates of coffee ended up--there was a ship accident, so they ended up soaked in the sea water--and they ended up tasting fine enough, but apparently didn't give them a buzz or whatever, and that ended up being, "Oh hey, you know, we can get rid of the caffeine. We can get rid of the caffeine and things can taste fine enough" and so that kind of led to the water process. Maybe not safely because initially--
M: They were using some harsh chemicals.
C: I think they used benzene which is like super toxic for initially in decaf. There's-- later innovations result in a water process which is fairly safe and stuff like that.
M: And then another really famous example of failing upwards, or a happy mistake was the discovery of penicillin. So in 1928 Dr. Alexander Fleming goes on vacation. And when he comes back from vacation and gets back to his lab he finds mold growing in some of the petri dishes, one of which had staphylococcus bacteria in it, and he saw that the mold was kind of preventing the bacteria from growing. And after a long, drawn-out process of researching this, that's how we discovered penicillin, which, you know, is an antibacterial.
C: Although he's not the one who made penicillin viable I think. Somebody else--
M: No, he did a bunch of research and was never able to get it to the point where it would be viable as a medication. It took about a decade and a bunch of other scientists and researchers to get it to the point where it was viable as a medication.
C: So those are just historical examples, like "pop science" examples really.
M: Things that everyone has slightly in the back of their head.
C: Yeah.
M: That they have to hastily do a web search to say them on their podcast.
C: But like for me actually this is how I-- Sometimes when things go badly they go, your bathroom is flooding, and sometimes they result in, I don't know, society-changing medication-type things eventually right?
M: Most of our mistakes are not the discovery of penicillin.
C: Or even decaf coffee. But I think changing the ability to fail incrementally, versus failing all at once can make a big difference, right? So for example, you like to bake.
M: I do.
C: I don't like to bake.
M: Yeah.
C: And the reason I don't like to bake, is I like to cook and I like to keep testing things as they go. And I screw up a lot, and then the things I screw up actually become part of what I'm-- I'm like, "Wait, oh I didn't intend things for go this to go in this direction. Well you know what? I have enough of a repertoire in my mind of things where, when things go in one direction I can push things in another", or you know, "me having accidentally burned this food is actually an opportunity to make a nice smoky sauce" or something like that.
M: Yeah so with very few exceptions you're usually able to resolve it.
C: I'm able to recover and actually just make it part of whatever I'm doing, right?
M: Yeah. I mean except for like the time that you dropped the glass thing in there.
C: I was so mad. Oh my gosh.
M: That was not a recoverable mistake.
C: Yeah no actually, let's include the picture of that. Having slow-cooked down, or actually I think it was pressure-cooked, all these vegetables that we had grown throughout the year that Morgan and I planted, I had harvested and chopped up, pressure-cooked down into this delicious sauce and everything like that. I then pull something out of the microwave--
M: which is above the stove
C: --and then shattered some glass...
M: ...directly into the Dutch oven full of sauce.
C: There is no recovering that one. That is not a happy accident.
M: No matter how many chunks of glass you pull out you never know if there's any left in there. So that's when you have to cut your losses.
C: So we both like Lisp.
M: Yeah.
C: Part of the pleasant aspects is that it's there's-- Lisp encourages experimental-style development. The whole worst is better story it's because of Lispers feeling strongly about operating on live patients rather than corpses. You're a physician. And even more than that, you're crafting. You're crafting as you go.
M: Mhm.
C: And for you, even though you like baking, for most things that you're doing that are crafting you actually prefer things that are closer to the same--
M: Off-the-cuff, as opposed to following instructions?
C: Yeah the same way that I like with cooking right?
M: Yeah so I have a lot of happy little accidents in my crafting things, in the same way that you do with your cooking.
C: Can you give an example?
M: Well, so I don't like to follow patterns of-- I mean definitely not for crocheting or knitting.
C: Yeah, hold on. You're talking about with textiles. Morgan not liking patterns? You love patterns!
M: I love patterns like, of behavior. And pattern-recognition and behavior and stuff like that. I do not like following patterns as in, instructions for how to make things. Because I am very dyslexic and the notation styles that are used for a lot of craft patterns are very difficult to keep straight if you are dyslexic and dyscalculic. So a lot of my crafting is experimentation and some of it is trying to follow a pattern and failing at following the pattern but discovering my own way that I like better.
C: Right and actually in the Terminal Phase episode that just preceded this episode, I kind of talked about how Goblins was an output of me experimenting in other languages. And I think what I hadn't talked about, was there was a game that I attempted to build that was a quick shooter-type game right? A quickdraw-type game, like in the Kirby games they have this, where you and another person-- a symbol appears suddenly on the screen and whoever presses the button fastest is the one who wins, you know, and wins the shootout right? And I was trying to do that, and I couldn't figure out how to be able to make different events happen at the same time in this very interesting experimental game framework someone else had made. And trying to figure out how to be able to make events happen at the same time because there's some goofy ideas about it, led me to actually think "well how would I design this?" and that actually led to Goblins in many ways. So yeah.
M: Yeah that's our section on happy mistakes and failing up. Now we're just going to tell a slew of anecdotes of hilarious ways that we have failed in crafting and coding. So one example that I'm guessing at least one person or two people in the audience out here who have done a lot of hand-sewing have probably also done is sewing whatever your project is into the clothing that you're wearing. So I distinctly remember when I was a kid and doing embroidery and sitting, like a kid does, kind of curled up with your knees up on the couch and my embroidery hoop just kind of sitting on top of my leg. I definitely sewed my embroidery project, hoop and all, to my skirt at one point. That is always fun, because then-- That one's not a happy mistake because it's very difficult to just preserve your work and move on, unless you're gonna cut out your shirt or something like that. So you have to tear everything apart.
C: You know I completely misread what this was on the sheet and I thought that it was something else. I thought you were going to talk about how you would use hula-hoops to make your Ren Faire--
M: Oh I did use-- I have used hula-hoops to make a hoop skirt for Ren Faire.
C: I was like did Morgan accidentally sew the hula-hoop into the thing? I thought that Morgan planned that.
M: No I did plan that. I don't know if-- that one wasn't a mistake though, that was me being like "I need a hoop skirt for this Renfaire costume, but buying a hoop skirt, either I'll get like a really cheap one that's not gonna last, or it'll be really expensive" so instead I made one using hula hoops.
C: So that was deliberate.
M: That was deliberate.
C: The only accident here is me misinterpreting it, meaning that our listeners get a bonus crafting story.
M: Yes.
C: Okay.
M: I would not actually recommend using hula-hoops for a hoop skirt though because they don't have enough give, so they restrict how far apart your legs can get when you're walking. So if you try and run while wearing a hoop skirt made out of a hula-hoop, you're gonna trip.
C: Oh okay.
M: Also maybe just don't run while wearing hoop skirts, because there's a good chance you're gonna trip regardless.
C: So my biggest failure that I can think of-- Well it's not my biggest failure. But-- [sarcastically] "my biggest failure! It's my greatest failure of all time!"-- This is a failure that I think ended up being very defining though in terms of-- it helped me in my presentation style by failing so dramatically that I realized that, you know, I don't need to be afraid of presenting anymore.
M: Because it's not going to get worse!
C: So at PyCon during a lightning talk one year I--
M: Like maybe about 15 years ago.
C: Yeah.
M: A long time ago.
C: I was presenting on the animation framework I used to propose to Morgan, which, that's a separate story maybe for someday.
M: That was not a failure.
C: No that was not a failure. Morgan did say yes.
M: We are in fact married.
C: I wrote an animation framework in Python to propose to Morgan. Of a character of me proposing. And anyway the point is, at PyCon I was giving a presentation on this, and PyCon's lightning talks are a big deal, and this is my first time giving a presentation in front of this many people. This was like you know a thousand people I thought, or something like that. I don't know if it actually was. But I was gonna give this presentation, you only have like 10 minutes on stage or whatever. And I had written my presentation in the animation framework so that, as you move forward it actually explains things. I had given this talk at the local Python user group, but not in front of this big of an audience.
M: And it hadn't been recorded.
C: And it hadn't been recorded. And so I went up on stage to present this and something went wrong during the middle of the presentation where I stopped being able to advance the slides and I hadn't written anything where I could move backwards in the animation. And so I had to go to my command line and kill the program, and I was gonna start it back up again. But then when I killed the program, something happened where suddenly the terminal it started spinning rapidly backward through the history. It was like going like [makes whirring noise] like backwards and backwards through the history.
M: And that was probably like a key being stuck or something like that.
C: Yeah it was probably a key being stuck and I that's immediately what I thought. And so like I was trying to find what key it was that was stuck because I knew I was already running out of time because I had been halfway through the presentation. And so I started trying to hit keys on the keyboard and like--
M: Increasingly frantically.
C: Yeah and then I eventually realized, this talk is doomed. And I was presenting it on a ThinkPad, like an ancient one that was almost dead already anyway. And I was like, "This talk is doomed, and this ThinkPad is doomed." I am leaning all in, and people had started laughing as I was smashing my hand on the keyboard. And I'm like "all right, Christine, we're going all in." So I just start smashing my hands dramatically on the keyboard. And eventually punching the keyboard just humorously on stage and just... And I just gave a frustrated shout of "Rah!" and I'm like "Welp. Okay I guess that's the end of my presentation." And the audience was erupting with laughter, and I was leaving the stage and Jacob Kaplan-Moss said "that was the most memorable talk of all of PyCon". And I'm like "well not for the reasons I wanted it to be." And he said "Eh, that doesn't matter."
M: People still bring that talk up sometimes at conferences. People remember that talk.
C: So what I realized was if I failed that hard and people really enjoyed it, I can probably lean in to failure.
M: Yeah.
C: I had a couple of other talks, not as funny as that, where I also kind of like just leaned into being over the top. And so maybe that's why, a decade-plus later, doing Foss & Crafts.
M: Yeah we're on a podcast.
C: And Christine, obviously the over-the-top ridiculous co-host of the podcast just leaning into it. Morgan's raising. Yeah, you missed it. You missed a serious eyebrow raise there.
M: Sorry, podcast format, you cannot see the facial expressions I give my wife when she's being ridiculous.
C: All right, well it's time for Morgan to talk about Morgan being ridiculous. What's something ridiculous that's happened with you?
M: So a few episodes or a couple episodes past at this point, we talked about the creation of our van. So converting a cargo van into a camper van. And I mean there were a lot of smaller failures on that process, I think including setting up-- I had to redo the bookshelf in it, where I had already started putting it together, and then I had to disassemble it and redo it because I could not fit, physically, my screwdriver into the space it needed to go, to finish one of the things. But the funniest story of that, which I think I did tell on that previous episode--but we're going to tell it again because it was pretty epic--was there was this old gross mat that was in the van. And when I pulled it out I just kind of ripped it out and tossed it on the driveway behind the van. And then I started cleaning out the van and started doing the rust remediation and stuff like that. But one of the things you might not realize before you start working on a cargo van that you cannot physically stand up in, is that's a lot of time to be kneeling while doing work. And if your body is not used to that, it can be hard to adjust to. So, after a few hours of working on the van, I went to get out and my legs were somehow like half asleep/cramping, and I go to get out of the van and I just kind of pratfall face first out of the van. And luckily, that gross, perpetually moist, disgusting mat was still sitting at the end of the van on top of the driveway, because that meant that I just fell face-first into a disgusting mat instead of--
C: Disgusting, mysteriously moist mat.
M: Yeah but that is preferable to just falling face-first into asphalt out of a van, which probably would have been a more serious injury than just my pride.
C: Right yep. Yep. So, I'm going to tell a former work story which... should I tell this or not? I think it's probably fine.
M: It's been over a decade.
C: Yeah so this is me making a mistake, but it was kind of revealing. So the Creative Commons License Chooser where you can choose between the different licenses, and it will give you the output that you can copy and paste to different sites. In Creative Commons on that License Chooser it would have an RDFA, the machine-readable metadata, which license you had chosen, and that is actually used by a number of different web crawlers to actually identify which content is under which license and so that they can power their image search and stuff. Well, I had worked on a rework of that and the rollout for the new version of the license chooser went live on a Friday--you know, obviously the time when something should go live is right before a weekend, right?
M: Because that's definitely when you'll be able to fix your bugs.
C: Right, so that went live, and I came back on Monday and realized immediately--nobody sent us any message or anything--I just realized immediately that I had made a mistake and that the license chooser was actually not spitting out the right license metadata. So you'd select a license, and it would actually give you the right license text--
M: For the human-readable text.
C: But the machine-readable version that you could copy and paste your website was actually wrong and so people were mismarking their pages and I felt--
M: For a whole weekend.
C: For a whole weekend, and I felt terrible about this, and I sent a really apologetic email to the text thing. I was sure I was screwed and going to be fired or something, but our sysadmin at the time sent an email saying "well that just goes to prove that nobody's paying attention at all to the metadata initiative." My boss was like "Yep." But that did actually kind of influence my thinking about-- okay manually marking things up-- you know, the whole machine-readable version of human-readable things. We are one of the few places that is delivering this for people, and it is having an effect, like it's being used by things, but obviously you know, our sysadmin was right. People just didn't realize, so I would have figured we would have had a bunch of angry emails, and we didn't, and that was kind of illuminating in its own way.
M: Yeah this next story I'm going to tell does involve an injury, and it also involves a saw, but I'm going to remind you that there's no blood, so it's not going to be as bad as the lead-up to the story, to the injury, is going to sound. As I've mentioned in a previous episode during my dissertation research I constructed a Roman 2-beam upright loom, and in making that I needed to make the loom heddle jacks, which are the part that sticks off on the two sides of the frame of the loom, and it props the heddle up for one position, and then when it's not propped up it's the second position. But that required cutting basically a chevron shape into a round dowel--like a two-inch round dowel. And I made the very questionable decision to use a miter saw to do this, because I could get the angle, and just basically halfway pull up, rotate, and then cut the other half, so that I would get this little arrow cut out instead of a straight cut. And cutting the second one of these the dowel moved and caught my middle finger between the dowel and the saw, and then the saw binded, which is basically if the saw blade is not going in at the right angle, then it just jerks kind of violently, and then doesn't move properly, which means that my middle finger got stuck between the dowel and the back. And I'm pretty sure that I broke my finger, but this happened in probably April of 2020, and I did not want to go to an emergency room for a non-fatal injury.
C: I'm pretty sure I encouraged you to go.
M: Oh you told me to go to the emergency room, but there's very little they can do for broken fingers anyways.
C: Well they can put it in a splint.
M: They can, and they probably should have, because my finger is still a little bent and it still hurts sometimes but...
C: I'm not sure what lesson-- or a lesson to take out of that one even if-- I don't know, even if there's a global pandemic, still get a splint at least?
M: Yeah I probably could have at least gone to Walgreens, probably.
C: We could've gone to Walgreens to get a splint. All right, look, you break your finger, go to Walgreens to get a splint. That's your lesson, people, all right. All right--
M: So just, the moral of this episode in general is, everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're a little bit horrifying. But making mistakes in both crafting and coding is how you learn.
C: But I guess let's end this one with a-- Partly why Morgan is a much more crafty one, and I'm the one who deals with imaginary worlds of software more often. Would you like to tell-- so sometimes, people are surprised when they hear Christine is not allowed to touch power tools.
M: Yeah sometimes people think I'm just like controlling when they hear "oh Christine's not allowed to touch my tools" but that's actually Christine's rule, not mine.
C: That's right.
M: Because Christine--
C: I'm way too much of a klutz.
M: is a klutz. Okay so before I built the library for our house I was building kind of like a prototype--
C: No wait, wait, wait. People might not know, Morgan built a freaking library in our house which is amazing.
M: Yeah there's one single room in our house that has two walls that don't have any baseboard radiators on them--
C: Okay, wait, wait, we don't need to get into the library let's just--
M: Okay, I built a library for our house, it was my first house project once we bought the house. And so I was building this prototype bookshelf as a proof of concept, to make sure that I knew the gist of how to build this library. And it was my first time using an orbital sander, and I had just gotten to the point where I needed to replace the sandpaper. And I was being probably more cautious than I needed to be. I mean I was being exactly as cautious as I needed to be, and then a little bit more--but I had unplugged the sander and replaced the sandpaper and then made sure that it was off and plugged it back in. And I had just restarted sanding with the fresh sandpaper on, and I was wearing noise-canceling headphones, and I hear screaming, and for a good five seconds I'm just looking at this tool in my hands thinking, "Am I dissociating right now, have I injured myself, and I'm screaming and I don't perceive it?"
C: No it's your wife, the klutz, who, while Morgan uses a fancy power tool, her wife merely steps one step out the door and sprains her ankle, turning it at a 90-degree angle as she steps off a single step.
M: And then throws the door open dramatically screaming and pulls herself inside.
C: It was a 90-degree angle, that frickin' hurt.
M: I believe that it hurt.
C: So yes, so Morgan uses the power tools, Christine does not use the power tools. Christine cooks in the kitchen and programs the softwares. Christine does not touch the power tools. Anyway, that's-- the whole reason for that is knowing your limits. So the failures can be funny--
M: And not--
C: And not--
M: Traumatic.
C: Traumatic and life-ending. And on that note, make mistakes...
M: Learn from your mistakes.
C: Make making mistakes possible and safe, and not dangerous.
M: Yeah take the steps that you need to take so that your mistakes are not catastrophic.
C: And on that note, bye everybody!
M: Thanks, bye!
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C: Foss and Crafts is released under the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 4.0 International License.
M: It's hosted by Morgan Lemmer-Webber and Christine Lemmer-Webber.
C: The intro music is composed by Christine Lemmer-Webber (meaning myself), in MilkyTracker, and it's released under the same license as the show.
M: The outro music is Enchanted Tiki 86, composed by Alex Smith of the Cynic Project, and is waived into the public domain under CC0 1.0. See https://CynicMusic.com for more information.
C: You can get in contact with us on the Fediverse, @FossAndCrafts@octodon.social, on Twitter as @FossAndCrafts, or you can email us at podcast@fossandcrafts.org.
M: We also have a chat room. Join our community on #fossandcrafts on irc.libera.chat.
C: If you'd like to support the show, you can donate at https://patreon.com/FossAndCrafts.
M: That's it for this week.
C: Until next time, stay free.
M: And stay crafty.
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C: Wait, did you write-- Oh you did write "metadata". I thought you wrote "Creative Commons melodrama" which would have actually--
M: [laughs]
C: [laughing] --also been accurate.